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October 2nd, 2012

EVGA Drops EVBot Support for GeForce GTX 680 Classified Edition

EVGA Drops EVBot Support for GeForce GTX 680 Classified Edition geforce gtx 680 4gb geforce gtx 680 geforce gtx 670 geforce gtx 660ti EVGA Drops EVBot Support for GeForce GTX 680 Classified Edition geforce gtx 680 4gb geforce gtx 680 geforce gtx 670 geforce gtx 660ti
If you were planning to buy one of the highly modified GeForce GTX models – EVGA’s Classified, MSI’s Lightning or Power Edition — then you might want to reconsider those plans.
There are number of threads on message boards about EVGA’s GTX 680 Classified, MSI’s GTX 680 Lightning and MSI’s Power Edition graphics cards. Long story short, NVIDIA has forbidden both the software and hardware voltage manipulation. So far only the software way was not allowed. This way EVGA could offer a EVBot plug for voltage manipulation on their flagship model. However, some people have noticed that the listings of the graphics cards at EVGA websites have changed — there is no EVBot support. It’s so confusing that few people have actually fought that their newly bought cards were faulty after checking them right after unpacking.

Here’s what Jacob Freeman from EVGA has to say:

Unfortunately newer 680 Classified cards will not come with the EVBot feature. If any questions or concerns please contact us directly so we can offer a solution.

Unfortunately we are not permitted to include this feature any longer.

It was removed in order to 100% comply with NVIDIA guidelines for selling GeForce GTX products, no voltage control is allowed, even via external device.

Overclockers.com contacted EVGA with a simple question, will GTX 680 Classified now be offered for lower price? The answer was quite clear:

No plans at the moment.

MSI Lightning and Power Editions

EVGA Drops EVBot Support for GeForce GTX 680 Classified Edition geforce gtx 680 4gb geforce gtx 680 geforce gtx 670 geforce gtx 660ti EVGA Drops EVBot Support for GeForce GTX 680 Classified Edition geforce gtx 680 4gb geforce gtx 680 geforce gtx 670 geforce gtx 660ti

The same thing happened to MSI’s Lightning. Guru3D, a creators of Afterburner, were working with MSI to include a voltage manipulation from their software. Shortly after this announcement, NVIDIA has told MSI that it’s not allowed to do so. So only the first 5,000 units of this card could offer this feature. Nevertheless, MSI continued to do whatever they can to make their products the most competitive for overclocking enthusiast. The solution was quite simple, manipulation of the PWM system of their GTX 660 Ti and 670 Power Edition card. Unfortunately, their modification brought more problems than good. It turned out that one additional component could even stop your pc from posting. Here’s what Tom’s Hardware discovered after investigating the circuit of those graphics cards:

So what’s happening? A small component completely superfluous to the normal circuit in one of the ground connections causes major overvoltage in the PWM chip in question – instead of the 5 volts specified by Richtek, the chip is hit with up to 9.3 volts.

Ultimately this whole situation could indicate that GeForce 700 Series might not offer both software and hardware voltage manipulation. The reaction of the people has shown that NVIDIA’s decision might not have been the best. Particularly when few thousands of graphics cards were already made and sold with those ‘forbidden’ features.

And by the way, I’m quite sure that ASUS will likely follow those guidelines as well, by dropping VGA Hotwire feature for their TOP models.

  • skr13

    Not a good move by Nvidia, specially for GTX 680 hardcore users.
    I think this decision was made because many RMA´s that were processed with this type of Voltage modded cards.
    Warranty policy could be the main reason behind this.
    I think Galaxy cards will be affected too…

  • Laguna

    I feel sooooo goooood ^_^ i have 2 reference GTX 680 in sli, one from EVGA and one from MSI but there reference so im good….
    But fill a little bad for the other people :(

  • Pingback: ¿NVIDIA prohíbe a sus partners incluir controles de voltaje en sus tarjetas de video? - CHW

  • BestJinjo

    But it is MSI and EVGA who are responsible for the warranty claims not NV. If those 2 companies were willing to accept the consequences of higher warranties, it should be allowed. The 680 Lightning costs nearly $600 and EVGA Classified was $660+ $70 EVBot. Both of these premiums are more than enough to make up for any RMA costs for a percentage of failed cards.

    I think it’s more to do with NV being worried that voltage unlock in MSI AB would cripple 95% of all other 600 series cards that aren’t made with high quality enough VRMs/components to be able survive long-term with overvolting. Also, 680 is barely faster than 670 (not like 480 vs. 470 or 580 vs. 570 where specs were different and VRAM was larger on the higher- end models). I think NV didn’t want people to buy a 670 and overclock it to 1350mhz defeating the entire purpose for getting a 680. This way they are charging $100 premium for 7-8% faster card in the 680.

  • skr13

    But not only those premium cards suffer with RMA´s, i know some people that damage their cards on purpose, updating bios, and shutting down computer before process complete, and as you know, not many cards has bios switch/dual to recover from bad flashing.
    The “perfect” time is planned, just some weeks before EOL, or discontinued product, and company/brand will give “you”, some better card model or in some cases money back…

    But i agree with you, that GTX 670 performance can kill GTX 680 sales, but in case of GTX 660 Ti is a different story due thinner memory bus and less rops.
    Nvidia did a wrong thing that was put GTX 660 with same amount of Vram as GTX 680.

  • Epicdan

    The cards sold with those features get to keep them. They’re still faster.

  • BestJinjo

    I think what also happened is NV prohibited all partners from allowing voltage control but somehow later allowed EVGA and MSI to do it. That probably pisses off other partners and NV responded by blocking EVGA and MSI from using it.

  • Pingback: Does NVIDIA prohibits its partners include voltage controls on their video cards? | Tech News Pedia

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  • Raghar

    I doubt that, they did it on theirs own volition. In case of Asus, it’s likely they simply used it’s own, working, system and were unable to do any radical modifications that wouldn’t harm the end user.

    In fact, there is no problem with digital voltage regulation, there is just a problem with maximum voltage, the minimum voltage should be kept unlocked.

  • Raghar

    Well, I spend about 3 hours with some research, and managed to calculate an approximation for voltage on 28 nm cards.

    longTermSafeVoltage * (newPlatform/knownPlatform)^0.2991321847 (BTW it would be nice when computer magazines would properly cite, when they would feel urge to use this equation.)
    It’s most accurate when the first term is a result of direct measurement, and when the knownPlatform isn’t too distant from newPlatform. Don’t use 2 generation old numbers. New and old platforms should be in nanometers.

    According to Intel sticker the long term safe voltage for 45 nm is 1.250, which means: The long term safe voltage for Kepler is 1.084607206 V. (that’s when user wants to keep it for several years without problem)

    Maximal safe voltage for overclocking is: 1.17137578248 V. Keeping it at at most at this voltage shouldn’t cause problems sooner than 3 years, or so, and should keep wear and tear at reasonably low level (don’t use that high number when you want the card under permanent load like folding at home, or similar).
    Conclusion is setting voltage at 1.17137578248 V should allow stable and safe overclocking… Drat Nvidia did that already.

    Is there a way how to force manufacturers to release BIOS that disables clock boost for these who wanna to have a silent gaming PC?

  • Pingback: NVIDIA prohíbe a sus partners control de voltaje en sus tarjetas de video ?

  • LedHed

    I don’t know a single manufacturer that has ever allowed hardware volt-mods and still be covered under warranty (I’ve done it, but it was done using conductive ink). EVGA used to be the best about covering just about everything besides throwing the card out the window, but they still didn’t cover hardware based volt-mods. Also the RMA goes to the manufacturer, not NVIDIA and obviously the warranty too. There must be a good reason NV is prohibiting voltage adjustment, I doubt it has to do with the small percentage of users who performed hardware volt-mods. Maybe they are going to pull an AMD and start binning their chips and up the voltage themselves, GTX 685? It is possible if they want to put the GK11* on hold a little longer.

  • skr13

    I have the answer for all, just wait to Videocardz, publish it.
    But like i said, it´s because RMA´s and warranty policy.

  • common sense

    - http://www.tomshardware.com/news/MSI-GTX-660-670-overvolting-PowerEdition,18013.html#xtor=RSS-181
    in here they speaking about design error in MSI’s GTX 670 PE and 660 Ti PE since they both useing same PCB http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_660_Ti_Power_Edition/3.html and http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_670_Power_Edition/3.html

    - So big MAY BE here but if PWM chip they speaking of, feed with roughly x2 voltage it was desigh to handle it might as well put whole power circuit of video card under stress and destroying it’s weakest point.

    - There is a thread on OCN http://www.overclock.net/t/1299621/msi-gtx-670-pe-oc-blew-up what ever it conected or it was just random i dunno

  • skr13

    I don´t trust Tomshwardware article about MSI overvolting, even PMW chip have 9.3V there is no proof that card will fail because that.
    Many MSI PE of 670 and 660 TI were sold, and only one case was reported in OCN, and MSI didn´t assume any kind of knowledge of hardware design error.
    I remember some years ago case that says, Furmark can “kill” graphics card, i used it many times more than 1hour stress with various cards, and no problems at all.
    http://www.geeks3d.com/20091209/geforce-gtx-275-vrm-damaged-by-furmark/
    I believe there are some isolated cases, as normal but not a recall needed.
    Sensationalism…

  • BestJinjo

    We support overvoltaging up to a limit on our products, but have a maximum reliability spec that is intended to protect the life of the product. We don’t want to see customers disappointed when their card dies in a year or two because the voltage was raised too high. ~Nvidia

    What I got out of this is that Kepler cannot safely support voltages above 1.175V or NV will not warranty the claim made by AIB for failed Kepler chips that were overvolted beyond this spec. Fair enough.

    But this also says how flaky GK104 is. Can’t even take anything above 1.175V? Talk about NV pushing this chip to the limits.

  • skr13

    http://www.overclock.net/t/1310654/amd-hd-78xx-problems-all-users-with-problems-please-post-here-we-want-amd-support-on-this-asap/80#post_18289669
    “Seems like AMD did the same as NVIDIA and with new drivers they capped OC, making card unstable beyond their specified MHz.
    A user from Guru3d reports that AMD 7850 Oced more than 1050MHz, makes card crashing/freeze.
    That could be the answer that many of you need to hear.”

    AMD isn´t so explicit with their rules like Nvidia , but seems that many problems related to 7000 have a answer, AMD “creates” problems with drivers to make cards unstable if user pass OC limit.
    Gpu world tendency seems that… AIB Marketing High OC capable versions, but in fact is a scam.Or in some cases gpu speed just throttle down in 3d, that can explain some fps drop.

  • common sense

    1st… Will you stop turning every thread into AMD Vs Nvidia threah ??? It gets boring quite quickly

    2nd… as you used AMD card yourself you know that control center includes AMD overdrive unfortunately there is limit on how far can you go and there is no voltage control. So newbie in over clocking just bump the core clock and memory clock but can’t bump the voltage. What you think is gonna happen LOL

    By now every manufacture got their own utility for overclocking. Like Afterburner or Trixx or Power Tune which allow voltage tweaking and it overrides AMD control center. Same goes for Nvidia.

    3rd… Keep your fan boy opinion to yourself, Nvidia cards are not bulletproof there for they also have problems similar to AMD cards

  • skr13

    I know how CCC works, but most of users don´t use it to OC.
    People uses tools like MSI AF, Trixx, Asus Gpu tweak etc, can change voltage and power limit, but that don´t change fact that AMD drivers don´t aprove MHz beyond their CCC, and cause unstable card, even with more Voltage.
    Nvidia does the same limiting 1GHz to all GTX400 and GTX 500 with 3XX drivers.
    Yes Nvidia cards have problems, but you are a fan boy that entered my conversation to BestJingo just because i talked about AMD.

  • LedHed

    “We contacted Nvidia for comment and received a response from their Senior PR Manager, Bryan Del Rizzo with the following,

    “Green Light was created to help ensure that all of the GTX boards in
    the market all have great acoustics, temperatures, and mechanicals. This
    helps to ensure our GTX customers get the highest quality product that
    runs quiet, cool, and fits in their PC. GTX is a measureable brand, and
    Green Light is a promise to ensure that the brand remains as strong as
    possible by making sure the products brought to market meet our highest
    quality requirements.

    Reducing RMAs has never been a focus of Green Light.

    We support overvoltaging up to a limit on our products, but have a
    maximum reliability spec that is intended to protect the life of the
    product. We don’t want to see customers disappointed when their card
    dies in a year or two because the voltage was raised too high.

    Regarding overvoltaging above our max spec, we offer AICs two choices:

    · Ensure the GPU stays within our operating specs and have a full warranty from NVIDIA.

    · Allow the GPU to be manually operated outside specs in which case NVIDIA provides no warranty.

    We prefer AICs ensure the GPU stays within spec and encourage this
    through warranty support, but it’s ultimately up to the AIC what they
    want to do. Their choice does not affect allocation. And this has no
    bearing on the end user warranty provided by the AIC. It is simply a
    warranty between NVIDIA and the AIC.

    With Green Light, we don’t really go out of the way to look for ways
    that AICs enable manual OV. As I stated, this isn’t the core purpose of
    the program. Yes, you’ve seen some cases of boards getting out into the
    market with OV features only to have them disabled later. This is due to
    the fact that AICs decided later that they would prefer to have a
    warranty. This is simply a choice the AICs each need to make for
    themselves. How, or when they make this decision, is entirely up to
    them.

    With regards to your MSI comment below, we gave MSI the same choice I
    referenced above — change their SW to disable OV above our reliability
    limit or not obtain a warranty. They simply chose to change their
    software in lieu of the warranty. Their choice. It is not ours to make,
    and we don’t influence them one way or the other.

    In short, Green Light is an especially important program for a major,
    new product introduction like Kepler, where our AICs don’t have a lot of
    experience building and working with our new technologies, but also
    extends the flexibility to AICs who provide a design that can operate
    outside of the reliability limits of the board. And, if you look at the
    products in the market today, there is obviously evidence of
    differentiation. You only need to look at the large assortment of high
    quality Kepler boards available today, including standard and
    overclocked editions.”"

    http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2012/10/3/nvidias-green-light-program–improving-quality-or-strangling-innovation.aspx

  • skr13

    I had already posted that link in news tips !

  • LedHed

    Well there was a possibility we were going to write an article on it, but I thought it would accomplish the same thing adding it to this articles comments.

  • BestJinjo

    NV confirms that Kepler was shipped with absolute max voltage from the factory and exceeding this voltage could destroy the chip through electromigration:

    ‘We love to see our chips run faster and we understand that our customers want to squeeze as much performance as possible out of their GPUs. However, there is a physical limit to the amount of voltage that can be applied to a GPU before the silicon begins to degrade through electromigration. Essentially, excessive voltages on transistors can over time “evaporate” the metal in a key spot, destroying or degrading the performance of the chip. Unfortunately, since the process happens over time, it’s not always immediately obvious when it’s happening. Overvoltaging above our max spec does exactly this. It raises the operating voltage beyond our rated max and can erode the GPU silicon over time.

    ‘In contrast, GPU Boost always keeps the voltage below our max spec, even as it is raising and lowering the voltage dynamically. That way you get great performance and a guaranteed lifetime. So our policy is pretty simple: We encourage users to go have fun with our GPUs. They are completely guaranteed and will perform great within the predefined limits. We also recommend that our board partners don’t build in mechanisms that raise voltages beyond our max spec. WE SET IT AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE WITHIN LONG-TERM RELIABILITY LIMITS”
    http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2012/10/05/nvidia-crippling-partners/1